But that is exactly the point: this is no different than a diabetic taking insulin. I have hypothyroidism. If I take too much T3 it'll thin me out and that would be cheating because I'd be reducing my power to weight ratio. However when I am within normal levels and I eat too much and don't ride I get fat like everyone else. 

When it comes to testosterone, you have to take a lot to become hypertrophic, which would adversely affect your power to weight ratio and actually make you weaker as a result. Testosterone was used by pro's to recover from the extremes they could put their bodies through via EPO. Some master racer who is fighting off osteoporosis is not taking levels that do much beyond ostensibly improving his sex life. It's not cheating because it's about salubrious living. And besides, the point of racing is fun, not winning. Moreover riding improves health. Got high blood pressure? Go for a spin and Watch it decrease …

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 26, 2016, at 3:12 PM, Shane Cunico via Bike-racers <bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com> wrote:

An interesting discussion in which I believe all cyclists have become extremely sensitive, and rightfully so.

Simply stated, as a racer, I would not race while under treatment.

But...

How does this differ from say, a diabetic?  If one has a valid medical condition, one that a pharmaceutical can moderate or alleviate all together, should this prohibit them from participation?  Certainly everything has the opportunity for abuse, but if done to mitigate a medical condition, how can this be viewed as always wrong?
Now don't take this in any way other than a question.  I personally would not participate, but does it make it absolutely wrong for anyone to race, particularly in an amateur event?

Just a question.

S

(BTW, I'm not aware if insulin or natural or synthetic derivatives are even banned, just food for thought)

Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 16:55:16 -0400
To: philipneis@hotmail.com; swain@swcp.com
CC: bike-racers@swcp.com
Subject: Re: [NMCycling] Seriously?
From: bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com

I'm waiting for Lance Armstrong to jump into this conversation.  

Javier


-----Original Message-----
From: philip neis via Bike-racers <bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com>
To: Cliff Loucks <swain@swcp.com>
Cc: bike-racers <bike-racers@swcp.com>
Sent: Tue, Apr 26, 2016 2:45 pm
Subject: Re: [NMCycling] Seriously?

My point is that there is no such thing as "normal". If you have to take a banned substance to compete you shouldn't be competing.


> On Apr 26, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Cliff Loucks via Bike-racers <bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Benjamin, that's exactly my point. Philip, my logic is clear and correct. I did not say "leveling the playing field". I said "playing the level field". Which are exactly the opposite.
>
> This has nothing to do with a 'normal' athlete cheating to improve his performance. Not in the least. It's a poor schmuck who is physically defective and under medical care. I would gladly race with him and welcome him to the community. Years ago I had a septoplasty so I could breath better. Did that effect my performance on the bicycle. Yes, arguably so. It brought me up to equivalence with all the others in the field who's nasal passages had not been damaged in prior accidents.
>
> --Cliff
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Benjamin George via Bike-racers <bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com>
> To: microbiojavi@aol.com
> Cc: "bike-racers@swcp.com" <bike-racers@swcp.com>, Cliff Loucks <Cliff@csloucks.net>
> Reply-To: Benjamin George <benjaminjgeorge@gmail.com>
>
> When doctors bring patients up to normal testosterone levels there is little to no advantage as you are just normal.
>
>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 12:51 PM, microbiojavi--- via Bike-racers <bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com> wrote:
>>
>> Race Clean. Race Safe.
>>
>> _Javier_
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Samuel Medina via Bike-racers <bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com>
>> To: philip neis <philipneis@hotmail.com>
>> Cc: bike-racers <bike-racers@swcp.com>; Cliff Loucks <Cliff@CSLoucks.net>
>> Sent: Tue, Apr 26, 2016 12:50 pm
>> Subject: Re: [NMCycling] Seriously?
>>
>> The "level playing field" argument is invalid. Taking any performance enhancing drugs to win a race is racing like a coward. Doping is wrong and immoral. End of story. Hats off to those who race clean!
>>
>> Samuel Medina
>>
>> > On Apr 26, 2016, at 12:40, philip neis via Bike-racers <bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > By this logic if they are all doping it's a "level playing field". If you have a medical condition that prevents you from legally competing in a sport you should not be competing in the sport. Pretty sure Lance and all the other dopers from that era already used the "level playing field" argument.
>> >
>> >> On Apr 26, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Cliff Loucks via Bike-racers <bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Yea, but in Teeple's case, they made him prove he's naturally deficient so the supplement would bring him up to a normal level. Saying it another way, they are allowing him to level the playing field - just the other around. Let's call it playing the level field? The article doesn't say anything about a middle of the pack requirement in his case. That said. How many people have the resources to pay out of pocket for an MRI? You'd have to give up the next bike purchase. I'm sure there is more to Teeple's case than the article mentions. Based on the facts it presents, I think the exemption is warranted.
>> >>
>> >> And That's The Way It Is,
>> >> --Walter
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Many of you probably have no clue who I just quoted.
>> >> --Cliff
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Apr 26 2016 10:35 AM, Paul Sery via Bike-racers wrote:
>> >>> I can't prove it but will promise to slam on my brakes the next time
>> >>> I'm about to win if given my TUE.
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Warsa, James S via Bike-racers wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ah, but that's what's funny. You can get only get the TUE if you
>> >>>> prove you aren't going to win. How the hell do you *prove* something
>> >>>> like that anyway?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Interpreting that quote from USADA literally, though, it seems that
>> >>>> any placing other than first is okay. So I'd say cover yourself in
>> >>>> patches.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Jim Warsa
>> >>>> Transport Methods Section
>> >>>> Computational Physics and Methods Group, CCS-2
>> >>>> Computer, Computational and Statistical Sciences Division
>> >>>> Los Alamos National Laboratory
>> >>>> 505-667-0214 [1]
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ________________________________________
>> >>>> From: John Savickas <John@Savickas.com>
>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:46 AM
>> >>>> To: Warsa, James S; bike-racers@swcp.com
>> >>>> Subject: RE: [NMCycling] Seriously?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hum, "Got Low T?" Side effects of taking Low T medication
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 1. Winning more races!
>> >>>> 2. PR at age 60 for Record Challenge!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> USADA isn't broadcasting the news - Not anymore. Word is out!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Race results will have to have an *. *rider on Low T medication
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Instructions say use one patch a day... What if I use 2 or 3?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: Bike-racers [mailto:bike-racers-bounces@mailman.swcp.com] On Behalf Of
>> >>>> Warsa, James S via Bike-racers
>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 8:01 AM
>> >>>> To: bike-racers@swcp.com
>> >>>> Subject: [NMCycling] Seriously?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Unbelievable. Almost. The best part is someone can dope if they "prove to
>> >>>> USADA that he or she is unlikely to actually win one of these amateur
>> >>>> races".
>> >>>>
>> >>>> http://www.wsj.com/articles/prescription-steroids-get-a-quiet-exemption-1461 [2]
>> >>>> 365753
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Jim Warsa
>> >>>> Transport Methods Section
>> >>>> Computational Physics and Methods Group, CCS-2 Computer, Computational and
>> >>>> Statistical Sciences Division Los Alamos National Laboratory
>> >>>> 505-667-0214 [1]
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Bike-racers mailing list
>> >>>> Bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com
>> >>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Bike-racers mailing list
>> >>>> Bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com
>> >>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Bike-racers mailing list
>> >>> Bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com
>> >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Bike-racers mailing list
>> >> Bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com
>> >> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bike-racers mailing list
>> > Bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com
>> > http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bike-racers mailing list
>> Bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com
>> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bike-racers mailing list
>> Bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com
>> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>
> --
>
> _~Benjamin J. George_
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] tel:505-667-0214
> [2] http://www.wsj.com/articles/prescription-steroids-get-a-quiet-exemption-1461
> [3] http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bike-racers mailing list
> Bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com
> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bike-racers mailing list
> Bike-racers@mailman.swcp.com
> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers
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