[NMCycling] Seriously?

Tue Apr 26 21:31:08 MDT 2016

There's a certain irony that in the middle of all these emails about 
drugs, there's an email with some Zipp wheels for sale.  There's 
something not right that if you get a bum deal and come down with a 
medical issue that needs to be treated by drugs you should stop racing, 
but if you've got a bum set of wheels you can pick up some nice carbon 
Zipp wheels scientifically proven to make you faster in your next race.

I think everyone can agree that if the sole/primary reason for taking 
drugs is for improved performance, it's cheating, but if the 
sole/primary reason is to treat a medical issue you're still a cheater 
if you race?

Brent

On 4/26/2016 7:39 PM, Benjamin George via Bike-racers wrote:
> But that is exactly the point: this is no different than a diabetic 
> taking insulin. I have hypothyroidism. If I take too much T3 it'll 
> thin me out and that would be cheating because I'd be reducing my 
> power to weight ratio. However when I am within normal levels and I 
> eat too much and don't ride I get fat like everyone else.
>
> When it comes to testosterone, you have to take a lot to become 
> hypertrophic, which would adversely affect your power to weight ratio 
> and actually make you weaker as a result. Testosterone was used by 
> pro's to recover from the extremes they could put their bodies through 
> via EPO. Some master racer who is fighting off osteoporosis is not 
> taking levels that do much beyond ostensibly improving his sex life. 
> It's not cheating because it's about salubrious living. And besides, 
> the point of racing is fun, not winning. Moreover riding improves 
> health. Got high blood pressure? Go for a spin and Watch it decrease …
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 26, 2016, at 3:12 PM, Shane Cunico via Bike-racers 
> <bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com>> 
> wrote:
>
>> An interesting discussion in which I believe all cyclists have become 
>> extremely sensitive, and rightfully so.
>>
>> Simply stated, as a racer, I would not race while under treatment.
>>
>> But...
>>
>> How does this differ from say, a diabetic?  If one has a valid 
>> medical condition, one that a pharmaceutical can moderate or 
>> alleviate all together, should this prohibit them from 
>> participation?  Certainly everything has the opportunity for abuse, 
>> but if done to mitigate a medical condition, how can this be viewed 
>> as always wrong?
>> Now don't take this in any way other than a question.  I personally 
>> would not participate, but does it make it absolutely wrong for 
>> anyone to race, particularly in an amateur event?
>>
>> Just a question.
>>
>> S
>>
>> (BTW, I'm not aware if insulin or natural or synthetic derivatives 
>> are even banned, just food for thought)
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 16:55:16 -0400
>> To: philipneis at hotmail.com <mailto:philipneis at hotmail.com>; 
>> swain at swcp.com <mailto:swain at swcp.com>
>> CC: bike-racers at swcp.com <mailto:bike-racers at swcp.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NMCycling] Seriously?
>> From: bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com>
>>
>> I'm waiting for Lance Armstrong to jump into this conversation.
>>
>> /Javier/
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: philip neis via Bike-racers <bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com 
>> <mailto:bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com>>
>> To: Cliff Loucks <swain at swcp.com <mailto:swain at swcp.com>>
>> Cc: bike-racers <bike-racers at swcp.com <mailto:bike-racers at swcp.com>>
>> Sent: Tue, Apr 26, 2016 2:45 pm
>> Subject: Re: [NMCycling] Seriously?
>>
>> My point is that there is no such thing as "normal". If you have to 
>> take a banned substance to compete you shouldn't be competing.
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 26, 2016, at 2:39 PM, Cliff Loucks via Bike-racers 
>> <bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Thanks Benjamin, that's exactly my point. Philip, my logic is clear 
>> and correct. I did not say "leveling the playing field". I said 
>> "playing the level field". Which are exactly the opposite.
>> >
>> > This has nothing to do with a 'normal' athlete cheating to improve 
>> his performance. Not in the least. It's a poor schmuck who is 
>> physically defective and under medical care. I would gladly race with 
>> him and welcome him to the community. Years ago I had a septoplasty 
>> so I could breath better. Did that effect my performance on the 
>> bicycle. Yes, arguably so. It brought me up to equivalence with all 
>> the others in the field who's nasal passages had not been damaged in 
>> prior accidents.
>> >
>> > --Cliff
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -------- Original Message --------
>> > From: Benjamin George via Bike-racers <bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com 
>> <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>>
>> > To: microbiojavi at aol.com <mailto:microbiojavi at aol.com>
>> > Cc: "bike-racers at swcp.com <mailto:racers at swcp.com>" 
>> <bike-racers at swcp.com <mailto:racers at swcp.com>>, Cliff Loucks 
>> <Cliff at csloucks.net <mailto:Cliff at csloucks.net>>
>> > Reply-To: Benjamin George <benjaminjgeorge at gmail.com 
>> <mailto:benjaminjgeorge at gmail.com>>
>> >
>> > When doctors bring patients up to normal testosterone levels there 
>> is little to no advantage as you are just normal.
>> >
>> >> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 12:51 PM, microbiojavi--- via Bike-racers 
>> <bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Race Clean. Race Safe.
>> >>
>> >> _Javier_
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Samuel Medina via Bike-racers <bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com 
>> <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>>
>> >> To: philip neis <philipneis at hotmail.com 
>> <mailto:philipneis at hotmail.com>>
>> >> Cc: bike-racers <bike-racers at swcp.com <mailto:racers at swcp.com>>; 
>> Cliff Loucks <Cliff at CSLoucks.net <mailto:Cliff at CSLoucks.net>>
>> >> Sent: Tue, Apr 26, 2016 12:50 pm
>> >> Subject: Re: [NMCycling] Seriously?
>> >>
>> >> The "level playing field" argument is invalid. Taking any 
>> performance enhancing drugs to win a race is racing like a coward. 
>> Doping is wrong and immoral. End of story. Hats off to those who race 
>> clean!
>> >>
>> >> Samuel Medina
>> >>
>> >> > On Apr 26, 2016, at 12:40, philip neis via Bike-racers 
>> <bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > By this logic if they are all doping it's a "level playing 
>> field". If you have a medical condition that prevents you from 
>> legally competing in a sport you should not be competing in the 
>> sport. Pretty sure Lance and all the other dopers from that era 
>> already used the "level playing field" argument.
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Apr 26, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Cliff Loucks via Bike-racers 
>> <bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yea, but in Teeple's case, they made him prove he's naturally 
>> deficient so the supplement would bring him up to a normal level. 
>> Saying it another way, they are allowing him to level the playing 
>> field - just the other around. Let's call it playing the level field? 
>> The article doesn't say anything about a middle of the pack 
>> requirement in his case. That said. How many people have the 
>> resources to pay out of pocket for an MRI? You'd have to give up the 
>> next bike purchase. I'm sure there is more to Teeple's case than the 
>> article mentions. Based on the facts it presents, I think the 
>> exemption is warranted.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And That's The Way It Is,
>> >> >> --Walter
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Many of you probably have no clue who I just quoted.
>> >> >> --Cliff
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On Apr 26 2016 10:35 AM, Paul Sery via Bike-racers wrote:
>> >> >>> I can't prove it but will promise to slam on my brakes the 
>> next time
>> >> >>> I'm about to win if given my TUE.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Warsa, James S via Bike-racers wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Ah, but that's what's funny. You can get only get the TUE if you
>> >> >>>> prove you aren't going to win. How the hell do you *prove* 
>> something
>> >> >>>> like that anyway?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Interpreting that quote from USADA literally, though, it 
>> seems that
>> >> >>>> any placing other than first is okay. So I'd say cover 
>> yourself in
>> >> >>>> patches.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> --
>> >> >>>> Jim Warsa
>> >> >>>> Transport Methods Section
>> >> >>>> Computational Physics and Methods Group, CCS-2
>> >> >>>> Computer, Computational and Statistical Sciences Division
>> >> >>>> Los Alamos National Laboratory
>> >> >>>> 505-667-0214 [1]
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> ________________________________________
>> >> >>>> From: John Savickas <John at Savickas.com 
>> <mailto:John at Savickas.com>>
>> >> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:46 AM
>> >> >>>> To: Warsa, James S; bike-racers at swcp.com <mailto:racers at swcp.com>
>> >> >>>> Subject: RE: [NMCycling] Seriously?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Hum, "Got Low T?" Side effects of taking Low T medication
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> 1. Winning more races!
>> >> >>>> 2. PR at age 60 for Record Challenge!
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> USADA isn't broadcasting the news - Not anymore. Word is out!
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Race results will have to have an *. *rider on Low T medication
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Instructions say use one patch a day... What if I use 2 or 3?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >>>> From: Bike-racers 
>> [mailto:bike-racers-bounces at mailman.swcp.com 
>> <mailto:bike-racers-bounces at mailman.swcp.com?>] On Behalf Of
>> >> >>>> Warsa, James S via Bike-racers
>> >> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 8:01 AM
>> >> >>>> To: bike-racers at swcp.com <mailto:racers at swcp.com>
>> >> >>>> Subject: [NMCycling] Seriously?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Unbelievable. Almost. The best part is someone can dope if 
>> they "prove to
>> >> >>>> USADA that he or she is unlikely to actually win one of these 
>> amateur
>> >> >>>> races".
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> 
>> http://www.wsj.com/articles/prescription-steroids-get-a-quiet-exemption-1461 
>> [2]
>> >> >>>> 365753
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> --
>> >> >>>> Jim Warsa
>> >> >>>> Transport Methods Section
>> >> >>>> Computational Physics and Methods Group, CCS-2 Computer, 
>> Computational and
>> >> >>>> Statistical Sciences Division Los Alamos National Laboratory
>> >> >>>> 505-667-0214 [1]
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>> Bike-racers mailing list
>> >> >>>> Bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>
>> >> >>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>> Bike-racers mailing list
>> >> >>>> Bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>
>> >> >>>> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> Bike-racers mailing list
>> >> >>> Bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>
>> >> >>> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Bike-racers mailing list
>> >> >> Bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>
>> >> >> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Bike-racers mailing list
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>> >> > http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Bike-racers mailing list
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>> >> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Bike-racers mailing list
>> >> Bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>
>> >> http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers [3]
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > _~Benjamin J. George_
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Links:
>> > ------
>> > [1] tel:505-667-0214
>> > [2] 
>> http://www.wsj.com/articles/prescription-steroids-get-a-quiet-exemption-1461
>> > [3] http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bike-racers mailing list
>> > Bike-racers at mailman.swcp.com <mailto:racers at mailman.swcp.com>
>> > http://mailman.swcp.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bike-racers
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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